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#1 Cath H

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Posted 06 December 2004 - 08:20 AM

Someone asked me the other day if I'd posted anything on sleep and I guess I haven't really - given I don't think there's any one bit of blanket advice for all. But thought perhaps given its something most have a question or two on at some stage perhaps I'd start a thread and if it turned out to be useful to anyone then we can pin it.

So, here goes!

First thing I thought would be useful was a ROUGH guide to amount of sleep required. Do I need to emphasise ROUGH any further??? These are 'average' amounts - Josh for example is significantly lower than each of them.

I've put it together based on the average minimum from each of the books I've read.


1 week old:
Night: 8.5 hours;
Day: 8 hours - 4 naps, 2 hours each;
Total: 16.5 - 18 hours

1 month old:
Night: 8.75 hours;
Day: 7.75 hours - 3 naps, 2.25 hours each;
Total: 15.5 - 17 hours

3 months old:
Night: 10 hours;
Day: 5 hours - 3 naps, 2 naps of 1.75 hours and 1 of 1.5 hours;
Total: 15 - 17 hours

6 months old:
Night: 12 hours;
Day: 2.25 hours - 2 naps, 1 of 1 hour and 1 of 1.25 hours;
Total: 14.5 -16 hours

9 months old:
Night: 11 hours;
Day: 3 hours, 2 naps of 1.5 hours each;
Total: 13 - 15 hours

1 year old:
Night: 11.5 hours;
Day: 2.25 hours - 2 naps, 1 of 1 hour and 1 of 1.25 hours;
Total: 12.75 - 14 hours

18 months old:
Night: 11.5 hours;
Day: 2 hours - 1 nap;
Total: 12-14 hours

2 years old:
Night: 11.5 hours;
Day: 1.5 hours - 1 nap;
Total: 11-14 hours

3 years old:
Night: 10.75 hours;
Day: 1.25 hours - 1 nap;
Total: 11-14 hours

4 years old:
Night: 11.5 hours
Day: no nap
Total: 11-12 hours

5 years old:
Night: 11 hours
Day: no nap
Total: 11 hours

6 years old:
Night: 10.75 hours
Day: no nap
Total: 10.75 hours
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#2 Cath H

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Posted 06 December 2004 - 08:33 AM

Modified from a post I made on EB - a range of sleep suggestions:

In my personal opinion - if your bub goes to sleep when you take him/her to bed with you, it's NOT TEETH! Much as teeth can be responsible for a stack of things sometimes, if they're causing that much grief simply being in your bed isn't going to ease the pain.

And if that (co-sleeping) works for all of you and is sustainable, don't let others make you feel badly for it. Personally I can't do it - J doesn't sleep and neither do we when we're all in the same bed! But if you're happy with whatever you are doing, don't let others pressure you to change it - all families are different.

There is not only one way, so if you're struggling, keep looking at your options.


Some varying suggestions:
* Wrapping (tightly) - some bubs sleep better when secure, this also helps stop them standing up in the cot.
* Safe-T-Sleep - A velcro wrap-like gadget that attaches to the bed to help stop them getting about, some babies take a bit to get used to it then love it others hate it.
* ROUTINE - a bedtime routine and regular time that's never/rarely changed. One which includes consistent approach to night wakings (ie. same response each time rather than into bed some nights, CC others)
* music either on CD or your voice (no matter how bad you think it is, just hum if you're embarrassed!)
* darkened room always and sleeping in the same conditions always
* adjust first morning nap if the wakings occur after midnight (indicates a.m. nap is either too long or too early)
* adjust last arvo nap if the wakings occur before midnight (indicates p.m nap is either too long or too late)
* offer a feed or other sleep association (dummy etc.)and then resettle as you did at bedtime (wouldn't be high on my list of recommendations tho if you don't want to be waking during the night for months to come)
* make sure your baby IS TIRED (sounds obvious, but a lot of 20-40 min power napping is due to bubs not being tired enough)
* a firm cuddle in a dark cupboard (or other place that's as pitch black as poss) can help a hysterical pre-6 monther calm down and either take his/her feed or drift off
* lightly rubbing their forhead, down their nose, across their eyebrows (particularly good for the 1st 3 months, but not when they're bezerk you need to calm them a bit first)


A word on controlled crying from my perspective.
In my opinion this only works if your only problem is that the bub doesn't know how to go back to sleep on their own or is blatantly refusing to because they want you. It's useless if:
- bub isn't tired (too much day sleep)
- bub is hungry (need to increase meals during the day)
- bub is sick (and therefore will likely not sleep well anywhere)
And there are also several techniques which range from never leaving them to the much debated version where the child is left to cry/vomit for hours on end.


Books to try:
* How to solve your childs sleep problems - Richard Ferber. May be a surprise to some that this isn't only about leaving your child to cry for hours - in some cases he recommends not leaving them at all. Lots of good info on what causes certain waking behaviour, and advice on routines.
* Secrets of the baby whisperer - Tracy Hogg. A gentle version of getting bub to sleep in their cot on their own. Takes some time and patience tho!
* No Cry Sleep Solution - Elizabeth Pantley. IMO not terribly effective when your bub has a real sleep problem. Very child friendly tho and good advice for newborns.
* Sleep right, sleep tight. Often the basis for lots of sleep schools. I didn't find it offered much other than varied CC techniques.
* Contented little baby book - Gina Ford. UK based, heavily focussed on routines. Very detailed.

Other resources:
* Sleep clinics - places where you and bubs can stay for the better part of the week to learn to sleep and establish effective routines. Great to have some support when you're doing this and good to get yourself some rest. Still requires lots of effort once you get home, it's just a kickstart. Usually free. State based ones as well as things like Tresillian & Karitane. Ask your ECHN.
* Sleep consultants - Sheyne Rowley, Jo Ryan and Tizzie Hall are the ones that come to mind. Costly but generally very effective as it is one on one. Packages range from phone/email consultations to in-home stays.


Websites
http://www.australia...hisperer.com.au - Sheyne's site, info on packages as well as forums
http://www.saveoursleep.com.au - Tizzie's site, info on packages as well as routines to download and other trouble shooting guides
http://www.thebabywhisperer.com/forums - Tracy Hoggs website, fairly detailed forums and other info on her methods
http://www.babybliss.com.au/ - Jo Ryan's website, a Sydney based consultant who travels. Deals with sleeping, feeding and routines.
Gina Ford on MumsNet - Gina answers members questions in detail on sleep and other baby/toddler concerns.

Good luck with it!! My son used to wake 10-15 times a night and I'd spend an average of 6 hours a day fighting and screaming with him to go to sleep, and if he did I'd be lucky to get 20 mins.

It doesn't have to be like that. You DO have options, just keep looking and trying until you find one that's right for YOUR family. And just because a 12 hour schedule worked for Josh, doesn't mean a 16 hour one isn't what YOU might need to find rest.
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#3 Cath H

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Posted 06 December 2004 - 08:41 AM

And one last word from me laugh.gif
What worked for MY boy....

When we went to sleep school he was diagnosed as high sleep requirement. We were taught all the tired signs, and told to put him to bed the minute we noticed 2 of them appear. We were told to hold him down on his side with one hand and patting and shhing until calm, then to leave and return for every 2,4,6,8 mins of crying and offer some comfort. After 2 rounds of 2,4,6,8 if he still wasn't sleeping we were to abandon that sleep period and go for a walk. He was 4 months at the time.

This didn't work for several reasons:
* He was tired and grumpy during the day because he wasn't sleeping well at night. Letting him have all the sleep he needed during the day meant the night wakings continued as he was getting more than his day-time quota - the cycle subsequently continued.
* He was still using a dummy
* He wanted to be wrapped and they'd taken it away


At 6 months Sheyne came and we started following a structured routine that aimed to have him sleeping 11hrs straight thru each night. To do this we pushed thru the tired signs so that after about a week his body learned that it wasn't going to get "make up" sleep during the day and its only choice was to take it at night. He had sleeps and meals at clockwork regular times each day and each sleep was preceeded by a half-1hr bedtime routine so that he knew what was coming.
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#4 mayap

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Posted 06 December 2004 - 04:50 PM

I think i am going to suggest a new forum to lisa

"Ask Cath" lol

You are an absolute legend chickee!!!

Vincent and I are off to sleep school tomorrow fo 5 nights so fingers crossed
Pat & Maya~16th Feb 2003
Vincent Luca ~ 11th March 04 ~ 9lb12oz
Alexander Scott~ 19th August 06 ~ 9lb10oz
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#5 Mrs K

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Posted 06 December 2004 - 06:31 PM

QUOTE (mayap @ Dec 6 2004, 04:50 PM)
I think i am going to suggest a new forum to lisa

"Ask Cath" lol

You are an absolute legend chickee!!!

LMAO, GREAT IDEA!



#6 Cath H

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Posted 06 December 2004 - 06:35 PM

QUOTE (mayap @ Dec 6 2004, 04:50 PM)
I think i am going to suggest a new forum to lisa
"Ask Cath" lol
You are an absolute legend chickee!!!

laugh.gif Crack up!!!

QUOTE
Vincent and I are off to sleep school tomorrow fo 5 nights so fingers crossed

Was going to say "enjoy sleep school" but I'm not sure enjoy is quite the right word!!! In any case, I hope it restores your sanity!

And then you can come back and fill out this thread with what you learned so I don't look like such a nigel tongue.gif
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#7 Nadine

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Posted 06 December 2004 - 06:39 PM

Maya I wondered about you today - whether you had been to sleep school and how it went...now i know......good luck, i hope that you get a lot from it just as we did!!

Cath - great information!!!!

Nadine

#8 Vicki

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Posted 06 December 2004 - 06:53 PM

Apparently Abbi is supposed to be sleeping 14.5-15hrs a day... try 18 at least LOL that includes the night feeds I am really blessed she has never really been hard to get to sleep especially at night, I feed then give her a cuddle put her back into bed and within minutes she is asleep.

I think the biggest thing I learnt (and I learnt this VERY early on) was no matter how awake the baby looks if they are showing 2 signs of tiredness put them into bed, even now I sometimes second guess myself if she fusses a bit when I put her into her cot or if I have to go and resettle but every time I get her back up she is grizzly in 5 mins and back in bed... trust your instincts smile.gif
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#9 Just Kylie

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Posted 16 December 2004 - 12:31 PM

Cath as you suggested the New contented little baby book, is a god send. A friend of mine lent it to me and although it is rather strict, if you follow it exactly for about a week, then it does your baby wonders.
Her bubba was sleeping throuigh at 4 weeks from using it and Nash has been ever since he was about 3 1/2 months old too. If you really want to get both you and youir baby into a routine i reccomend this one highly. I also tried the no cry sleep solution, and imo was a waste of money lol
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#10 mayap

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Posted 16 December 2004 - 03:31 PM

Ok this is I learnt at sleep school.

Try and get a "Feed, Play, Sleep" Routine, so as soon as the buby wakes up feed it (if breast feeding do both sides) then wait aboout 30mins and then give solids, then play with the baby for the next 1-1.5 until baby starts sgowing tired cues (rubbing eyes, yawning, clingy, grizzling). Once the tired cues appear we say night night and out the baby in the cot (so the baby can learn to put themselves to sleep).

If the baby is crying go in and resettle, when you resettle do not look the baby in the eye, just place back down and say bed time now and cover. If Vincnet is wailing (and i lerant the difference between crying and wailing) or on and off crying, i leave him for longer as this was his way of putting himself to sleep.

If your baby is crying crying, try and resttle and few more times if this doesn;t work, then i pick the baby up and play a little longer or check the nappy, if this is the case normally after half an hour he goes back down and a lot easier.

I think the key i to be flexible about controlled crying/comforting, don't just go by the clock, you know your child.

For the night time i usually use "Feed, Play, Bath, Book, Feed" and this whole time takes up about 2.5 hours.

This was a godsend to me, Vincent would go to bed at around 10.00pm and wake every 2-3 hours and only sleep during the day twice for 45mins. Since sleep school he goes to bed around 6.30-7 and stays asleep for 11 hours, he also has 2 naps of 1.5- 2 hours during the day. He is such a better baby as well, he is not as clingy, his mood is better ( i use to call him psycho before) and he is content playing by himself and staying in his pram for longer periods.
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#11 Always'n'forever

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Posted 17 January 2005 - 07:13 AM

QUOTE (Kylie Hosking @ Dec 16 2004, 12:31 PM)
Cath as you suggested the New contented little baby book, is a god send.

Hi, Just thought i would add that sophie is 3 weeks old today - i only just saw this thread today but found this book in the library in town the other day and she has so far slept thru 2 nights in a row - waking at 5.30am (going to bed at 9 - 9.30pm) but after a half feed she is straight back in bed and asleep again until 7.30 - 8am It truely is a godsend

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#12 lexwithbub

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Posted 17 January 2005 - 10:39 AM

QUOTE (Cath H @ Dec 6 2004, 09:33 AM)
There is not only one way, so if you're struggling, keep looking at your options.


It doesn't have to be like that. You DO have options, just keep looking and trying until you find one that's right for YOUR family.

So VERY VERY VERY true...

I remember when we were having problems with Morgan, and you do get to the point where you will try ANYTHING... even a shot of rum in their bottle sounds like a good idea at 3am! LOL!

Eventually you WILL find what works for your family, and it will be different from your next door neighbour, the mum with the perfect baby at mother's group (incidentally that was ME at mine, because i had already found the RIGHT way for us... i would pop morgan in the stroller with his dummy and he'd be out like a light)

once we had been to tresillian, and had taken the various bits and pieces of that that worked for us, morgan was sleeping HEAPS more than was suggested for his age, but he was happy when he was awake, and we need to allow our bubbies as much sleep as they need to be happy when they are awake.

Sleep time is GROW time... or something like that. LOL!

Must bookmark this thread so i remember for when this one arrives LOL!
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#13 Cath H

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Posted 29 January 2005 - 10:42 AM

Me again tongue.gif
You'd think sleep was my favourite topic.... really it's quite the opposite I assure you!!!!

Just wanted to throw in some newborn advice to the thread. Someone recently bought me "happiest baby on the block" and I thought I'd save everyone the money as it's a really basic, common sense principle yet not at all worth buying. How the hell he rambled on for 260 odd pages and sold so many copies is disgusting!!!

Still, unless there's something wrong with your baby, the techniques are reasonably reliable if done correctly (and Dr Karp reiterates doing them in this order, and that they're more effective when combined rather than on their own). Supposed to calm even the most "colicky" baby (yeh, i'll debate that) but certainly a baby that's had all its basic needs met and isn't unwell should respond within about 20 mins I reckon.

Dr's theory is that for the first 3 months, immitating the womb is the key to helping any baby but particularly unsettled ones adjust to life on the outside. He outlines the following steps to "turn on the calming reflex":

1. Swaddling/Wrapping:
Two main keys here are TIGHT and with their arms by their sides. Dr agrees that many unsettled babies will fight it, but that it's important to make the other steps effective.
He says once the baby is past 3 months you can start to leave an arm out to see if baby still sleeps as well. If there's no change then you can continue weaning the wrap off, otherwise he advises whacking it back on for another month before trying to wean. Suggests wrapping up to 9months, 12 at a stretch.

2. Side/Stomach:
Once wrapped, placing the baby on their side or stomach helps stop their feeling of insecurity. I found this particularly helpful i must say and another thing that i did instinctively.
Dr recommends sitting down, placing the baby on your lap with its head in your hands resting on your knees (feet towards your belly). Using the crease between your two thighs to rest the baby between.
He does stress that once calmed/asleep, babies should sleep on their backs.

3. "Shhhhh" sound/white noise:
LOUD is the key here, not a gentle lullaby type. The noise is supposed to be louder than their crying, so either you SHUSH in their ear, or get yourself a CD player/radio and turn it up to the required volume (sounds for silence CD has a white noise track you can put on repeat - also has 'womb sounds' tracks if you want to give that a shot).
The volume can be decreased as baby calms. Have to say white noise is a useful gadget - once the baby is older its also handy to block out other sounds that may be contributing to early wakings etc. We'll be using it to help Josh sleep thru Hayden's night time feed-wakings.

4. Swinging (more like jiggling):
Fast jiggly motion is the key here, like when you walk or the vibration of the car. The more gentle swinging comes once the baby has calmed.
The technique suggested is to place the baby as in point 2 and then quickly rock your legs from side to side - not a wide rock, just a narrow jiggle.
He also recommends letting your baby sleep in an automatic swing etc. slowing the speed as the baby becomes more settled.

5. Sucking:
Dummy, breast, finger, whatever. Needs no real explanation, except to say that they need to have calmed somewhat before they can suck properly.
Dr also says this is the first to get rid of to stop it becoming a problem. Recommends removing the sucking aid once baby has calmed, and re-enforcing the previous points to encourage sleep.


So there you go - saved you 260 pages!!!!

I will say that a habitual baby will pick up on several of these techniques as sleep associations that may cause problems later on down the track. Having said that, you don't know that side of your babies personality until it's too late so if they work then why not give it a shot eh?!

Time for me to shuttup again now.... however briefly of course smile.gif
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#14 Mrs M

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Posted 30 January 2005 - 08:18 PM

Hey I saw him on Dr. Phil

He described the 7 steps in the episode.

So i wonder how did he sell so many books when he was giving the advice away for free on Dr Phil!

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#15 lexwithbub

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Posted 17 May 2005 - 03:40 PM

Thought I should share what we learned in sleep school.

For us I learnt all the self settling techniques (the same as what maya has posted, although it varied depending ont he age of the baby) with morgan, and was using them with hamish, but it wasn't working.

I thought I was NEVER going to get Hamish to sleep during the day,

But going to tresillian again was really an opportunity to get the routine established, to have the HELP and support to get things under control. Which was something I couldn't manage by myself at home.

It was great to have someone there to say "never mind the kids... GO and have dinner... NOW!!!"

So basically i was doing all the right things, but just needed that bit of extra support to get it wroking properly.

Now we are doing MUCH better.

Alex
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