home schooling, I'm curious... Options

[gogogadgetgirl]

I really thought that there was some requirement that your children had to attend school or be homeschool via correspondence?? Why is it that you hear in the news about wayward kids who are wagging school and they are saying that the parents and child are 'breaking the law' by not attending school?

That would be kids who are deep within the system. By wagging when you are enrolled at school you are missing chunks of curriculum that you will later be tested on - it will cause failures within the school system, affect the statistics in the school, and I suppose if the parent has enrolled the child in school (actively showing they don't want to homeschool) and then the child isn't going, it tells the authorities that there is nothing going on.

When you register as a homeschooler you are actively saying "I am taking responsibility for my child's education". Inside that statement you can pretty much do what you like, as long as when you get checked on there is something approximating "proof" of learning. There has been a real controversy lately because Vic law has recently changed so that you have to register. In the past you didn't need to. So you could really unschool without having to bother with tricking up some files to show some inspector.

Also Mer can I ask - if Luca didn't seem to be thriving/happy in unschooling would you consider sending him to a school? (sorry picking on you as Anita/Sheri/Kat's kids have attended a main stream school at some stage.)

I hope I can answer it without sounding funny or harsh. The question is a valid one, but from my perspective (now) seems strange. Luca seeming unhappy at home means I should send him away. It kind of makes me think wouldn't that be a strange thing to ask that of a parent of a 2-year old - if your child seems unhappy would you put him in daycare (or find a way he can be happier with you)? With unschooling there is no cut-off age where you are suddenly not enough for your kids, you just go on living, they go on learning, it all keeps happeneing as it always has
.... I would say if he isn't happy being with the people who love him most, and with a wide range of things to do at his own leisure, and plenty of friends, and lots of freedom and fun times, how will sending him to a classroom where a stranger who has to divide attention between 25 other kids, and who doesn't know him and may not even like him is delivering a set curriculum that he will be forced to pick up or be labelled a failure, make him happy. I think if he can't thrive and be happy under my care I would need to re-examine what was going on in our family. This is only unschooling I'm talking about - I think it would be quite possible for kids to be unhappy doing school-at-home.

Having said all that, if he really did want to go to school, and said he wanted to go to school, I would have no problem with that (but like I said earlier I would make sure he had a full understanding of what would be expected of him at school). That's what natural learning is all about - giving kids freedom to decide for themselves what's interesting and what they want to do and not do. So wanting to go to school is just another choice. And to be honest I don't think school would be bad if the child knew he was there by choice and could leave any time.

mer

[Miss_Lisa]

I would say if he isn't happy being with the people who love him most, and with a wide range of things to do at his own leisure, and plenty of friends, and lots of freedom and fun times, how will sending him to a classroom where a stranger who has to divide attention between 25 other kids, and who doesn't know him and may not even like him is delivering a set curriculum that he will be forced to pick up or be labelled a failure, make him happy.

As a person planning to TTC next year and also in training to be a high school teacher, I've found this thread very interesting.. thank you for sharing

I'm so curious about this, it's so intriguing to know that there are such different systems that I haven't even discovered or thought about. There are a few points that I'd love to know more about though, and they all relate to the quote above by you, Mer.. hope you don't mind!

*Do you ever wonder what will happen when one day your children are no longer surrounded just with people who love them, and no longer have such freedom? When they get a job and have a boss who might not like them and deadlines they have to fulfill and starting and finishing times of work? Do you worry that you might be limiting an ability to cope? That's the biggest thing I'd worry about, I think, and I'd love to know your thoughts on it (yours, too, Anita!) I know Sonia kind of answered this but since she went to high school I think of her as a bit different, sorry!

*As a teacher in training, I find it quite confronting that there is still the perception that kids are made to feel 'dumb' or 'like failures' in a classroom It has been paramount in my training that we do not ever label our students, that we try to cater for all standards and types of learning, that we know there are different learning styles and ways of teaching that are nothing like the 'rote learning' that kids used to be subjected to. I know that some kids will struggle in some areas but it was my experience that struggling to acheive something, hating it so much, forcing myself to overcome and then learning from it was so rewarding and taught me so much about myself.. I feel like the kids who 'hate' any learning area can be taught patience, understanding and a will to overcome, I've seen it just in my prac classroom over the past 5 weeks (have had a very rewarding experience with a year 8 boy with anger management and learning difficulties, he hated English but I've helped him to love it.) I'm not sure what I'm asking here! Maybe putting forward a different perception of a classroom than yours, to weigh up both? It has made me think, a lot, about what I'm doing and how I'm going to do in the future.. I also found a comment that the kids have to ask to go to the toilet confronting also; to me, yes my kids have to ask, not because I'm trying to be authoritarian and controlling but because it is my duty of care to know where my students are at all times, to ensure their safety and to have a clear idea of their whereabouts.

*As someone who went to a low socio-economic state school, I can still say that some of the most inspirational adults I had the privelage of meeting were teachers. To be honest I hardly remember the awful ones, I know they were there and I remember a few names and faces, but the fantastic ones stand out in my mind.. and they shaped me into who I am today. That's one of the reasons I couldn't home school my kids, I'd be worried that my children would miss out on these people.. I suppose my worry about that outweighs my worry about the awful ones out there Maybe all mums would actually be the best teachers out there for their children, but their context, knowledge and life experience could be so different to others and exposure to difference could bring an outlook to things and new ideas.. thoughts?

I don't really know where I'm going with this post, but it's been on my mind and wanted to get it all written out, I love being introduced to new things that make me think

[TickledPink]

This has been a really interesting read.

Kat & Sheri, I find it a disgrace that the education system has let you down so much

Many, many years ago I was a "governess" on a property out in western qld. It's obviously a bit different to home schooling your own children, but I found it a really positive experience for both the children and myself.
It was via the Charleville SDE, who were fantastic. This was all pre-internet, we had a half hour radio lesson a day.

The older girl (grade 3/4) was a bundle of energy who hated sitting at a desk, had a short attention span and a lot of the time insisted she was a horse. So, if she wanted to lie on the verandah or the floor to work, or sit on the back steps then that's what she did. I spent a lot of time altering lessons to suit her. We had a big chart of all the things which needed to be done that week and she could pick and choose when they were done rather than be told what to do.

The younger girl (pre/ grade 1) thrived in a more traditional environment, loved sitting at a desk etc.

If the kids were getting bored or didn't understand something, say maths, we would go and bake a cake...pack a picnic...collect leaves...all sorts of things.

BUT, I wasn't having to manage a household, organise meals etc as well as teach so it's a bit different.

[~*Willow*~]

This has been a really interesting read.

Kat & Sheri, I find it a disgrace that the education system has let you down so much

Can guarantee you all that you will be hearing LOTS more about this is the months to come. Letters to the State Government are in full force. I have also contacted the Courier Mail also am waiting to hear back.

Charleville SDE is now out of Brisbane now Kat. Shame I would have loved to have School of the air!

I know its off topic... Anyone been an exchange student Overseas? or know of anyone? Would love to find out more because Jordan is nagging me about it. ( Send PM please )

[-Megs-]

I'm really loving all these threads at the moment, you're all giving such a wonderful look at alternative ways to parent rather than just the "mainstream" and it's really fantastic and enlightening to read.

[gogogadgetgirl]

[quote name='StarGrrl' date='Sep 23 2006, 02:25 AM' post='1271176']
Mer.. hope you don't mind![quote]
I don't mind at all. These are the exact same questions I asked as well! I was lucky to have understanding friends who knew where I was coming from and could answer these questions without feeling like I was attacking them. I know where everyone is coming from when they ask these questions too, and I'm sure Anita and others will be in to offer their perspectives as well.

[quote]*Do you ever wonder what will happen when one day your children are no longer surrounded just with people who love them, and no longer have such freedom? When they get a job and have a boss who might not like them and deadlines they have to fulfill and starting and finishing times of work? Do you worry that you might be limiting an ability to cope? [/quote]
I think kids need to be surrounded with this kind of support while they are kids. As they grow they develop confidence and the self-esteem to deal with people who don't like them and facets of employment that are dull or stressful. I don't think exposing kids early to painful or stressful situations will teach them to be better at dealing with those situations. Kind of like throwing a kid into the pool won't teach her how to swim, but a gentle introduction, with mother's arms and floaties and no pressure will give them confidence in the pool. One day they will run and dive into the deep end just for fun.

[quote]*As a teacher in training, I find it quite confronting that there is still the perception that kids are made to feel 'dumb' or 'like failures' in a classroom It has been paramount in my training that we do not ever label our students[/quote]
Oh I don't think good teachers intentionally humiliate kids or label them dumb. I have nothing against teachers, there are lots of caring and concerned teachers out there doing the very best job they can with the environment they are working within. What I'm referring to is the actual "system" of schooling. The very nature of grading/scoring tells some kids they are "behind" the other kids. When your friend has an A and you have a C. When I was at school we had graded classes 7A1-7E. Is it still like that now? How can a child in the D or E stream not feel "dumb"? If you are being taught something and you're just not that into it and don't really get it, you will be considered untalented in that area. But like Sonia's brother, you may be into it a couple of years later than the curriculum prescribed. What a shame that you may have the joy of it ruined by feeling like you weren't any good at it, just because you weren't ready that year.

[quote]We try to cater for all standards and types of learning, that we know there are different learning styles and ways of teaching that are nothing like the 'rote learning' that kids used to be subjected to. I know that some kids will struggle in some areas[/quote]
I don't think it's much fun to be struggling wirh reading at age 8 when it is expected by schools you should be reading at 6 or 7. I know schools are doing their best to cater for different rates and styles of learning but I don't see how they can truely achieve that when there has got to be a progression and how can you do fractions if you never really grasped addition.

In your course do you read any John Holt? As far as I understand he played an important part in changing the ways of teaching from all that rote learning and being punished for mistakes, to the way it is now. I have a teacher friend read Holt in his course and when he did volunteer work in Vanuatu he used Holt to help the teachers see that rote learning followed by testing isn't very helpful. But even Holt, by later on in his career, came to believe that the ideal way for kids to learn could simply not happen in schools because of the very nature of the classroom.

[quote]It was my experience that struggling to acheive something, hating it so much, forcing myself to overcome and then learning from it was so rewarding and taught me so much about myself.[/quote] You are lucky to have that kind of personality. A lot of people don't feel that way. Do you remember those things you hated and struggled to learn? Could you pass the test today I wonder? I can't see the merit in being forced to learn about something you hate. Personally I do get satisfaction in overcoming difficult obstacles, but they need to be my choice of obstacles. I don't like the idea of being told what I need to struggle with.

One of the other problems I see with being at school is the fact that kids "learn" in order to get the marks. Not because they have an interest in it. They are performing to receive someone's judgement. I feel that that affects motivation. I was great at this and thrived at school on the competition between my classmates, fighting for who could come first. It didn't set me up well in later life though because I now flounder, not knowing what I like or how to work at things. All my motivation in the past was external and I really lack internal drive. That's just me but I think it is a common result of working towards scores rather than working from an internal desire to do something.

[quote]I also found a comment that the kids have to ask to go to the toilet confronting also; to me, yes my kids have to ask, not because I'm trying to be authoritarian and controlling but because it is my duty of care to know where my students are at all times, to ensure their safety and to have a clear idea of their whereabouts.[/quote]
A lot of the arguments against schooling do seem confronting, but they are not meant to be accusations of authoritarianism against teachers - it's just the way school life has to function. It's not that I'm saying "those horrible bossy teachers force you do get permission to go to the toilet". But like you said, you need to know where the kids are, so it is just a fact that kids need to ask for permission to pee. If Luca wants to go to school I want him to know that he will need to ask and that there are a whole lot of other things that have to happen at school that don't happen at home, that he might not like and he needs to be clear about.

[quote]some of the most inspirational adults I had the privelage of meeting were teachers. To be honest I hardly remember the awful ones, I know they were there and I remember a few names and faces, but the fantastic ones stand out in my mind.. and they shaped me into who I am today. That's one of the reasons I couldn't home school my kids, I'd be worried that my children would miss out on these people.. I suppose my worry about that outweighs my worry about the awful ones out there [/quote]
Yes I had sopme very inspirational teachers too. But think of all the inspirational people in the rest of the community that we didn't have the chance to meet because we were in school all day. Homeschooling kids have exposure to far more differences than schooled kids IMO.

[quote]Maybe all mums would actually be the best teachers out there for their children, but their context, knowledge and life experience could be so different to others and exposure to difference could bring an outlook to things and new ideas.. thoughts?[/quote]
The thing is with unschooling - it's not about mums being teachers. It's about mums being able to let their kids follow their interests, giving them avenues to be able to find things out for themselves, follow things up, and make new discoveries for themselves. It's not that the mother is the one "imparting her knowledge onto her children. So there is ample opportunity for kids to meet loads of interesting and inspiring people from all throughout the wider community.

My husband is bugging me to get out into the community myself at the moment so I'll have to finish up...

mer

ETA oh bugger my quotes didn't work and there are loads of posts I haven't seen above since stargrl posted

sorry if nothing made sense...back later

[TickledPink]

Charleville SDE is now out of Brisbane now Kat. Shame I would have loved to have School of the air!

I know its off topic... Anyone been an exchange student Overseas? or know of anyone? Would love to find out more because Jordan is nagging me about it. ( Send PM please )

Really?! That is such as shame They were so great. My "boss" (the mum) was the president of the P&C for a couple of years. Really inspirational teachers.

I think one of the girls here was an exchange student in Japan...might get more replies if you post in General Chat?

[Mrs_Stevo]

Mer - just in relation to my comments on 'living in a small community'. That's great that the example you gave has so much to offer. I wish I could say the same for here. Unfortunately my community would be 1/2 that size & the resources & infrastructure are just not here to accomodate anything like that. Very small town 'backward' mentality at times, which can be very frustrating. I'm sorry if my response sounds negative, it's not negative towards what you are saying, just negative that this is a downside to where I live. People seem to take a long time to 'warm' to new idea's, especially when they are 'different' from the mainstream. However we really love living here & there are so many other positives that make living here worthwhile. I just find it hard when I have access to such good information through places like here & other forums, and it reminds me of how 'backward' my community can be at times.

Sheri - that is awful, I'm sorry that it didn't work out & you are still struggling with the education system. You know from discussions we've had previously that my work involves children with Aspergers. Our case managers are forever having battles with the education system which is just so inadequately able to cope with these (& other children with disabilities) and the funding is so non-existant it isn't funny.

Anita - Just off the subject a little. Mark would love to run a business like you & David. Sadly we have no markets here, not through lack of trying, but I did hear a rumour the other day about a local growers market that might be getting started so might hit you for some idea's if that goes ahead, if you don't mind.

[gogogadgetgirl]

Kat,

I was an exchange student in France when I was 16 - one of the best things that has ever happened to me. I would say as soon as Jordan reaches the age where organisations accept students - let her go for it!! (too lazy to PM)

mer

[Anita]

Anita - Just off the subject a little. Mark would love to run a business like you & David. Sadly we have no markets here, not through lack of trying, but I did hear a rumour the other day about a local growers market that might be getting started so might hit you for some idea's if that goes ahead, if you don't mind.

No problem Nette - you know where to find me

I will get back to everything else on Tuesday (ish) when my brain is working again!

[Mrs_Stevo]

No problem Nette - you know where to find me

I will get back to everything else on Tuesday (ish) when my brain is working again!

thanks Anita